A *sense* of honor is not sufficient.
Just complying with orders is statism.
The US is spreading international socialism.
Nazis fought for national socialism.
"Blood & Honor" was a Nazi slogan.
19th Century Presbyterians and Abortion
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When the Orthodox Presbyterian Church affirmed in 1972 "that voluntary
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As a Marine I accept you unsaid "Thank you" for your freedom. You just may not know how thankful you are.
Since the Uncivil War, America has waged wars of imperialism. Instead of missionaries spreading the Gospel, our nation sends armies to spread democracy, the gospel of the state.
The patriot says, “I love my country.”
The statist says, “My country-right or wrong.”
~John J. Dwyer in The War Between the States, America’s Uncivil War
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil." ~Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
Our young men deserve more than a *sense* of honor.
Yes, what is the definition of honor now?
There is honor in defending freedom, but the U.S. military is not defending freedom...it is nation-building, "spreading democracy" and protecting U.S. "interests" (whatever an "interest" is--I have yet to hear someone define it).
I agree with everything that has been said in this thread. BUT what does any of this have to do with the Marine Corp. billboard? The Marines should have a sense of honor. Dad was a Marine and considers it an honor to have served with a body of men who look out for each other and seek to defend the Constitution and their homes. He served during Vietnam (unit was never called in) and joined before even been drafted as many good men did. They considered it dishonorable to not sign up when their neighbor might have to be drafted and go off to die. To this day, everytime he comes across a marine (there is no such thing as a "former" marine) they always greet each other with "Semper Fi" (Semper Fidelis) Latin for "Always Faithful."
Excuse me: Dad IS a Marine (as said their is no such thing as a "former" Marine)
I agree with Douglas, 100%. And thanks to your Dad for his service :) my husband is about to get out of the Marines in a few months and we have been through two pretty rough combat deployments. He's still having issues with a lot of it, but nonetheless I am incredibly proud of him and all of our guys. I think unless you've been through it, and have lost friends, missed important dates, missed births, spent lots of night alone...then you wouldn't understand the honor we all fight to represent. (Families included)- ♥
I think I'm a little naive (maybe a lot naive) when it comes to this subject, but it seems like things have changed a lot in regards to the military and our government. I don't see the honorable purpose in our wars now and do not want my son to die in one. What would he be giving his life for now?
And if he didn't die, but was wounded physically and/or mentally for life. What would be the purpose and honor in that?
The wars themselves may not be honorable but the bravery and strength our servicemembers show by joining to face the unknown should still be recognized. - ♥
What's so honorable about fighting for the war machine? Last time I checked Vietnam was a boondoggle and Afghan and Iraq are heading, if not already there, in that direction.
A lot of well-meaning Christians have blood on their hands. It's a shame to the cause of Christ.
I'm sorry, but "blood and honor" and the Marine's slogan are two different things! It's almost misleading to post the nazi slogan in regards to the Marine billboard. I agree with Douglas and am grateful for a military willing to serve and protect our nation. They deserve all the honor we SHOULD bestow upon them!
the only Christian who has any blood on his hands is he who does not observe the rules of Christian chivalry that have been estabished in 2000 years of Christendom. (I.E. killing innocent civilians, shooting POWs, destroying private property) He who fights againt armies whether believing he is defending his home or just to help the man in the trench next to him is behaving as an honorable Christian soldier. Having said that, and what I said previous about my dad, I feel this needs to be said as well: Simply being in the military or even being in combat doesn't make a soldier a hero. In recent years politicans, talking heads and chest beaters (many of whom have never shouldered a rifle) love to kiss up to the military by calling them all "heros." I wanted to throw up the other night in the NH debate when a Navy vet asked the candidates when they would bring his sons home (who are currently serving in Iraq). Everybody, even Michelle Bachman, instead of directly answering the question, hemmed and hawed after giving this long winded kiss up flag waving monologue "thank you very much, I appreciate your service and your sons sacrificing for our freedom" (IOW, we are still trying to justify the war we started at your sons expense....look how patriotic I am for saying that!) That is all exept Ron Paul who simply said: "I would bring them home immediately. I don't need to hear what my generals have to say, I'M the Commander in Chief" Being in the military and serving in combat is a job. A duty. It doesn't make you a hero. A hero is the man who goes above and beyond the call of duty. That's not to say the men who fight in combat don't deserve respect, THEY DO. They are doing a dirty job and some of them believe they are doing the right thing. And, as Robert E. Lee would say if they "Do their duty in all things" they come out better men than when they went in from having done that. I feel humbled and proud to shake the hand of a man who's been in combat. It's a dirty job . BUT they are not heros for simply "being in the military" to be paraded around to glorify a politician's agenda.
^ BTW, my dad, as a Marine, would agree with what I just said. And probably have more to say
There is a huge difference between supporting our troops and supporting an insane foreign policy. And for our troops, an oath of service never removes a moral obligation to disobey an unlawful order. So how is the war in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Libya a lawful defense of American liberty?
@Douglas, "there is no such thing as a "former" marine" SO true!!!!! My Dad is an 82 year old Marine! And he got out of the service in 1948 :)
There was a time when men swore to uphold the Constitution. Now they sware to obey orders. Big difference!
Esther, There are plenty of men in not just the Marines but he military in general that would go AWOL and/or resign and take up arms against the government if the government ever tried to do something like order the military/police to confiscate all guns (which violates the 2nd amendment) They would not follow unlawful orders. Many of those guys who are serving in Iraq and Afghan believe they are keeping terrorists out of America "better to fight them there than fight them here" they say and are thus defending the Constitution (of course we know that's nonsense but the politicians and brass have drilled that into not just them but a lot of everyday people in America)
Zen, Wow! You're dad must have served in the pacific during WW2. Where did he serve? Did he see any of the battles? (Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, New Guinine, Pillippines, etc.) On my dad's behalf tell him Paul Yarbrough says Semper Fi next time you see him and for that matter @ Jessica, you're husband too
Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees with the decision to go to war with another country, no one should ever make any comparison between Nazis and our military men and women. I personally despise Obama and most of his agenda, but with the exception of the few bad apples that every organization has, our brave soldiers have my full support, admiration, appreciation, and honor. and they should have the same from every other American.
While I agree they should not be above being compared to Nazis. Any government anywhere is capable of doing not just what the Nazies did, but, even worse, what Nero and the Soviets did (which was far worse than anything the nazies ever did)
I think there are a lot of American churches that resemble nazi party propaganda machines more than anything the military may or may not do.
As the father-in-law of a Marine officer who is one of the most honorable, God-fearing, productive and courageous men on this planet, I find this posting highly offensive and disgraceful. Shame! if there is any group of people who can be counted upon to uphold the Constitution, it is the Marine Corps.
+1000
Garry, we are NOW involved in unconstitutional wars. What say the Marines?
Brian, we don't like the comparison either. Dad is reading the bio of a pastor's son in Germany. Statism came in as patriotism. Mr. Botkin pointed out that many German soldier's bodies were found with new testaments on them. Some of them were believers!
He recommended enlisting as an officer instead of a private, so that a soldier can resign rather than obey unlawful orders.
We have many military heroes, living and dead, and do not mean dishonor to any of them. However, this sign "Dedicated to a Sense of Honor" is pretty revealing of how empty (and therefore dishonoring) our policy is.
I still agree with Seppi points made here, but I still don't see what this photo or it's slogan has to do with Nazi propaganda or why the slogan is bad. The Marine Corp has always had a sense of honor, as it should be. Are you saying that it's like the church that "talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk" as modern evangelicals like to say?
Until some competent authority declares the 30-year-old War Powers Resolution unconstitutional, no member of the American armed services is violating his constitutional oath by carrying out duly authorized missions. The question of the constitutionality of the War Powers Resolution has not been settled. http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32267.html#_1_11
Douglas, he was stationed in HI (I think Oahu?) He worked on an aircraft carrier (among other jobs). He is part of a group of men that are not being made today :( Sadly, he is not a follower of Christ, so our relationship is limited to worldly things/matters.
Very sorry to hear that....
American soldiers are not charged with protecting the Constitution, or freedom for its citizens. If they were then the soldiers would march on the capital and go to war with the real enemies of the American people, its leaders. The Constitution was unbinding almost from it's inception, and America is not a land of the free, it is a land of the regulated and taxed.
How many regulations does it take before a citizen ceases to become free? Or how many taxes does it take before freedom is removed? What is the purpose of having a Constitution when there is a governing body called the Supreme court that can rule contrary to it. And city officials that are not even required to have read the Constitution let alone understand and implement it.
The government and all its members, including the armed forces, are used to protect the ruling bodies right to create laws and also to protect the freedom of the ruling body to freely do as it pleases. In other words the government leaders right to sovereignty and infallibility.
If a man chooses to serve in the US military then that is between him and God. There are Biblical examples of men serving even in the Roman armed forces yet without sin, so we can not say that it is sin to serve in the armed forces.
Once we cease to be able to freely speak about the sins of our nation then we can know that we truly have lost our freedom completely. And it starts with its citizens refusing to hear any criticism concerning their government and its employees. The state is not infallible, only Christ is infallible.
I think the Seppi Family are attempting to point out a progression. It's not as though the sign is bad in and of itself. But with the knowledge of how far our government has strayed from the constitution, the words ring hollow. As a result, it is a redefining of what honor is. Someone who isn't familiar with the constitution (a vast MANY Americans and politicians) will begin to equate honor with statism. (As Nazi Germany did.)
It's harder for families of servicemen to see this, as they can generally see the honor in the individual soldier and thus it is easier for them see honor in the whole system. Even if that honor isn't there. But personal honor is something else entirely. One can have personal honor in a completely honorless system.
"With the knowledge of how far our government has strayed from the constitution, the words ring hollow." That's it!
I am surprised at friends saying it is biblical to make the world safe for democracy.
The first World War was fought for that given reason. It ushered in the bloodiest century of all time.
Thank you, Aaron. You hit the nail on the head!
These days, honor and pride are often conflated.. but ought not to be. Honor is a man doing what is right, even at high cost. I would say most individual servicemen DO condust themselves with honor. Pride is being puffed up, thinking of one's self more highly than is proper. The USMC, in particular, DO comport themselves honorably most times. I think the billboard pictured is designed to appeal to a potential recruit's sense of pride, of belonging to the "right" organisation.
Agreed, nearly all of our overseas military endeavors are NOT honorable. Nation building, meddling in the affairs of others, forcing our power elite's agendae on them, and manipulating political, economic, social, and religious affairs in nearly every corner of the planet is NOT according to our Constitution. Remember, standing armies are forbidden in that document. Our military is to be used ONLY to protect against foreign invasion. Ron Paul has it right when he says "bring them ALL home. Now." And yet, those individual soldiers, sailors, marines, are, in the main, honorable men. They HAVE been put inn harm's way... and that for very questionable reasons. Any candidates for public office who favor keeping them deployed in every cornere of the world are not worthy of MY vote. We should have our men back home, safe, to take their rightful places in our society... their families, homss, towns, businesses, etc... not to mention the incredible tax burden of which we'd be relieved.
No, a "sense" of honor is unworthy of note. Honor itself, however, is very much needed. The real thing, not its shadow, is what is of value.
Anonymous, I've a question for you.... with the War of Northern Aggression, or the Civil War, or the War Between the States, in view, which side in that conflict was worthy of honour? Was it the side that invaded the sovereign homeland of the other, or the side that valiantly defended their homes, families, businesses, way of life, from the invaders?
I say, when it comes to the individual soldiers involved in that war, BOTH sides are worthy of honour... for the most part. There were, of course, atrocities on both sides... and both sides suffered tremendous pain and suffering and loss.
What does NOT deserve any honour whatever is the government that sent so many men to their deaths, and to destroy so much life and property, in an unrighteous and unjust war.
I firmly believe, and I also think Seppis do as well, that the present conflicts in which we are involved in so many nations round the world are unjust, unprofitable, and, in many cases, we MAKE more of a mess than is already there. We as a nation, at the insistence of our government, expend so much capital and life for.... what? Meanwhile we neglect so many needs within our own shores. WE cannot save the world, nor turn it to democracy. Most of those people where we find ourselves contending for their "freedom" have something very different in view with regard to what is best for their people than what we have in view for them. WHY are we occupying some 140 different nations around the world? We are worse than the British Empire when "the sun never set" on her territory. And we will likely suffer the same fate as the British do we continue along this path. Examine her history.. we are repeating it, in spades. Face it, many of the "nations" deeply conflicted in the past fifty years or a bit more are nations formed at our various conference and treaty tables.... manufactured nations that never respect the natural territories of the people groups comprising them. No wonder Iraq is a mess.... there are THREE nations trapped within the same artificial territory, all three of which also find themselves spl.it between three such artificial "nations".... there never CAN be stability when so many people groups with mutually exclusive desires are forced to please everyone involved. Yet WE were instrumental in forming nearly all of those "nations", inherently unstable and doomed to continual conflict. And our "presence" there to keep "peace" is honorable?
Please, do not misunderstant me... the individual soldiers who put their own selves at risk in harm's way to do what they are told to do ARE, for the most part, honourable men, and give their all toward that goal. We DO highly esteem and honour those who do serve. Sadly, though, they are powerless to really FIX the dividing issues.... which will never be resolved until, for example, the Kurdish people from Northern Iraq, Turkey, and Syria are allowed to come together as ONE nation, separate from the Sunni and Wahabi and Kazakh and Turks.... sovereign and self-governing amongst themselves with no outside interference from other ethnic peoples. Same with every other such situation over there. Trying to "fix" this mess over there only serves to poke at the hornets' nest.... but, again, it is not the fault of the individual soldiers..... they are executing the plan as handed down from above. It is that plan that is deeply flawed.... and, as the video mentioned by Esther shows, more of the individual soldiers serving in those places are awakening to the situation and its flaws.... and beginning to speak out. I pray that at least some of the politicians in charge of this sort of thing begin to HEAR them... and then DO what is right.
@ Esther "there was a time when soldiers swore to uphold the Constitution, now they swear to obey orders".
Not sure where your info has come from, possibly it is your interpretation because of your beliefs about the military, but my brother recently swore his oath as a new cadet at West Point and in his oath he swore to uphold the constitution. He is a most honorable and Godly man who I am very proud of.
I had similar thoughts when I saw the billboard; your post is one of only a few I could find dealing with the topic.
"Dedicated to a sense of honor" is in fact an appropriate way to describe the US military -- if they were dedicated to actual honor, they wouldn't be serving Moloch.
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